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tv   C-SPAN Weekend  CSPAN  December 19, 2009 6:00am-7:00am EST

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work performed for the government is performed with the @ @ @ @ @ @ @ rr@ @ @ @ @ @ @ @z integrity and transparency does underlie all of our relationships including those with our customers, suppliers and the communities in which we do business. our company is involved in the training of afghanistan national security forcesç make xe qualified to assist the commission. we currently have more than 27 professionals deployed worldwide. i support the united states misç in afghanistan and we provide training and mentorship of the officers of the afghanistan police which i refer to as a.p.p. and the afghan narcotics inter
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diction unit. these are afghan organizations tasked with combatting narcoterrorism in afghanistan. xe trains them toç interdict narcotics. the. p.p. training force lasts six weeks including firearms, tactics, special weapons and rule of law. they provide mentors to provide operational success to reinforce the retaining. the basic course lasts six weeks and focuses on rifles skills. xe has applied the lessons to improve these programs. the trainee must respect afghan culture. the relationship between individual instructor and trainee is critical. this relationship must be built
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on trust and strong sense of mutual goals. building this relationship requires maintaining a consistent presence of instructors during that time. the training schedule must coincide with the afghan work week and haul the these which do not match ours. -- workweek and holidays that don't match ours. we emphasize the importance of leading by example, including participation along afghan supporters. we have learned that afghans do not like to be outperformed by their colleagues. this has been a motivational tool. these instructors have spent three years in afghanistan. the average age of instructors
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is just over 40. that is the equivalent of a field grade officer in the tiller -- field grade officer in the military. i would like to thank you for providing us the opportunity to discuss our successful efforts in training. we are proud our company's expertise can assist our nations mission in afghanistan. i will be happy to answer any questions. >> you have the floor. >> you mentioned in your opening statement several ways to improve the training process. if you have to prioritize the top three, what would they be?
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>> thank you. as i looked at my experience over the past 18 months, for a successful law enforcement program the first thing i would do is embed more law enforcement experts at the grass-roots level. we provide a basic training and that is all we are providing. when they go back into the district's what they need are the field training officers. they need someone to continue to provide training for them to improve on the skills they may forget, that is with them 24/7. the other piece that is important is you provide and start to get after this issue we
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have heard today of corruption. what you have is a conscience, in looking over a police officer that they have someone to keep them moving forward. i think we need to continue to focus on quality. we talked a lot about short in programs of instructions. the quality that we provide we should not walk away from. the third piece to prioritize this is their needs to be a focus from the grass roots level that goes to the province and back to the moi. the complete chain of command and mentor scheck is very important. -- andmentor -- and mentorship
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is very important. >> i welcome your thoughts in a different training environment. what are the top three things that you feel trainers could do to improve the process? >> thank you for the question. it was mentioned on culture. the reason why we list this as number one is it gets at the notion of how we adjust our training. we look at the performance of training. we first show how the task is done through repetition so we see the afghans have that scaled-down, and then we observe. so we get them to
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[unintelligible] the second is touched on, our responsibility to bring the right trainer in. that goes to the heart of working with them, we understand what the requirement is they want us to do. then we find that person with that skill set. that is our responsibility. that gets into the standards. the last is the respect for the culture. we have our personnel understand what the training is and the culture so that a factor that in, and observed national holidays that they have. >> thank you. border police, what three things
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would you do that you are doing today or would do differently? >> the number one thing is the mentor problem broke -- the men. if you don't have follow up in the field, the skills that they've learned will disappear. .
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>> we bring law-enforcement personnel to be the instructors. for the field mentor's we tried to get a balance of people who have law enforcement background as well as military backgrounds because it is a much more rigorous environment. compared to the military instructors, that is a critical and -- a critical component. the limitations come down to the laws dealing with it the international traffic in arms regulations. as we want to modify the curriculum at a rapid pace than the rules governing contractors are much more restrictive than of the military. >> the continuity factor. many of our personnel have been underground for quite a bit of time.
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the rotate personnel in and out. it would help smooth out that thought. we also provide shortage of skills if they happen to have any. we can adapt. we can react and be very flexible as the need to change out skills sets. we can work with our contract think to do that. >> you are one that does not necessarily believe that the military can train military better than contractors? you do not have to answer that. >> i would love to know the answer to that. he smiled. >> ok, answer it. >> whether or not the military can train better -- >> whether the military can train military forces better
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than contractors. >> i think the military as a fantastic job. i do think that contractors to have something to offer, also. in many cases we have experience. >> that is a very diplomatic answer. basic police training? >> yes, sir. my personal opinion is the army is not a core competency for training police or to train law enforcement officials. when you have a contractor and is a professional, dedicated law-enforcement officer that is there to provide that training i think it is a plus. armiger not equipped to do please train and -- our army is not equipped to do police training.
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they're dealing with police chief and officials in the have established those relationships. i think the benefits -- we cannot away with them. i those are the two most important things. i cannot come up with a limitation 3 >> i am sure you could not. thank you very much. >> thank you, mr. chairman. your statement has a generic, about the -- not about this specific situation. when developing training and mentoring programs excluding industry experts will not provide best practices or best values. i took a look at the top 10 contractors this year in afghanistan.
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this is my own data not from an agency or from the commission. your contract, your civpol contract, is no. is no. 6 -- is no. 6. what interested me is that the same type of vehicle you are on and that the next contract will be on is out of the 10, five are also using that. there is not full and open competition but among all limited competition, idiq. 3 i would have to put a question mark next to. the data given to me was not telling. with you explain what you meantr
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that contract vehicles excluding the industry experts will not provide best practice or best value? to some extent, that goes against the we have been hearing for a number years -- a number of years about how going towards limited competition, idiq, is the way of the future. ç >>i] sir, let me try to addresst this way for the specific contract and situation we are currently in. currently,ç the -- >> why can't you just make it generic? why does it have to be this specific one. >> i thought that was the question, sir. the question was about the contract -- my statement was about the contract that is currently -- >> i'm going to be uneasy if we start getting into this specific
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contract. i'm not going to allow us to have that discussion. we are just not going to have it. you can talk generically about the issue. >> commissioner, my opinion, based on the performance of the employees that we have had on the ground, we have demonstrated our subject matter experts and performance that we have had with training the afghan troops. but by not permitting those that have -- by not permitting those that have the workç today and b performing the work today to continue that work is why you see my statement that you have just read to me. >> if a different vehicle were used the previous panel was asked and another of the competitors on the civilian police, state department vehicle which is c.p.i., would be able to compete. would you agree that would be
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beneficial, too? >> in generic terms, i think the taxpayer is better served when there is full and open competition for a value of contract. again, in generic terms, i am a government contract professor so i think i can keep this incomprehensible if nothing else. when there is a protest, although it is possible for the military to save there are urgent and compelling reasons not to stay but to go ahead, in general, will it not be open to the incumbent? this is a chess game. there are only a limited number of moves. isn't it a frequent move for the incumbent to say that you could just extend the time a couple of
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months that we continue performing opera -- on the contracts. that is why there is not encouraged in the compelling situation. isn't that standard? assuming the incumbent has not been told you have shortcomings. which is usually not the case. >> commissioner, i am not sure if i understand the question you are asking. >> i can ask a different way. >> i think you are asking me if the incumbent can make the case. >> yes. >> my answer to that is that the incumbent could make the case. >> we have a two month extension of your contract in this situation, yes? that is a fact. what's right now, the task order ends 31 january. i just submitted a de-mob
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ilization transition that extends to 31 and march which gives as a two month transition period -- gives us a two month transition. >> would you normally provide performance information if you had it? do you have -- and you would know if you have because the black water is in the nature that the contractor is given an opportunity to put in a response, on the most important contract had in iraq, the personal security contract, the vehicle is on is the wpps -- do you have performance information on that contract? >> yes, we do.
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it is generally good on that contract. we have transmissions from years ago, but the performance under the contract in iraq, on a whole, we have a performed, i believe, admirably and effectively. that was in accordance with the scope of the work on the contract. >> when the information was developed, did this cover the incidents which is so alienated the iraqi government that they were unwilling to license you to stay? it took awhile to be able to do that, but when they could they refuse to license you to continue. didn't the past performance information include the incident where the 17 civilians were killed and five or six
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employees of -- >> past performance of what? >> it to what? in other words, what are you asking me? the past performance in what contract? >> the contract on the wpps vehicle which was the task order in iraq. >> i believe that information, between us and the government, is a protected items. if it is not we will provided to the commission. i think the report that was done after the incident, it was found that the company was not responsible, as a company. there were individual actions being looked at. i think the report is well looked at from the perspective of having personal, department of state personnel, in the
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convoy. >> let me follow it up. i am not asking what you submitted in the current contract in process. i am asking when you filled out the exchange with the contract and officer concerning what they would give you for the future past performance information. it is put into a computer system, but the state does not. i would appreciate you -- i am not asking you to provide when you have given on the sitting process. i am asking if you have received and dealt with this in the past. was it in the best interest of the united states to continue your contract? that was left as a question by the report. i do not know what the state department's view is and i do not know it from the report. if you would provide that, i would take my time. >> it gentleman, i want some
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short answers. -- gentleman, i want some short answers. i would like to know the difference between being a contractor in iraq and afghanistan. if you could cite some differences, i would appreciate it. what is the difference? is there any? does the government treat you differently? number two, is the challenge of being in afghanistan different than being in iraq in a noticeable way for providing the same service needed? could you start us out? >> there are differences. the security situation in iraq for a while was different than this it -- the security situation in afghanistan. we are seeing some of that in iraq, but that was the difference. the traders, the trainees, the literacy rate was obviously different and in afghanistan.
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we have a 12 week program in iraq. we have an 8 week program in afghanistan. >> you have a 12 week program and those individuals tend to be literate verses aliterate. they tended to have a the but more and come -- more income. they were not in this deep poverty you saw in afghanistan. you are saying it was 12 obverses eight. interesting. -- 12 versus 8. >> the same officer oversees both. we have a number of those who oversee the contract. beyond that -- >> i am sorry. i am trying to move quick here. >> i can only speak to afghanistan.
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>> we do not have training contracts in iraq. >> you are in both theaters, correct? >> yes. the developing government after the invasion took a while to take place so the process and procedures you would normally see in the government, even just customs clearances and the like, were much more different. in afghanistan they were more structured, at least in our view. that assisted greatly in the process. the other thing is the licensing process. there was an established structure. the have changed over time and allowed a more orderly process for licensing. last, from a government perspective, from our interaction with them, we had a different role in iraq with
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protecting diplomatic security. >> let me ask this question. i would like to know your capability to impact policy given that you have information that should be able to influence policy. for instance, and i would like to know if this is different in iraq verses afghanistan, if i were a trader atrainer, -- a trainer, i would be saying there are corruption and a lot of places. he cannot have corruption the police and military because they are your fourth line of defense. i would be saying to the policymakers, wouldn't it be nice to have a loyal army? you have been -- what is your
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capability of influence in afghanistan? who would you talk to? can you talk to the afghan government? can you talk to the american government? timmy, that is a key issue. it makes everything you do succeed or fail. -- to me, that is a key issue. >> mr. chairman, our points of contact or entry is purely for the state department. i cannot talk about how i can influence or we can influence policy. we do provide information whether we think the training is going well, if there needs to be changes, what ever we think is going on with the program. we can and do provide that information both to our customer, inl, and to the end user in both countries. i cannot comment what happens with that information and
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developing policies. >> can you respond? do you understand the question? >> i can talk about afghanistan. we are embedded in the military. when we mentor training at the ministry level, we are influencing policy. our influence is working together with them. it is not an individual basis where we would walk in and influence. we work with the military on influencing. >> i think an example would be at the adp and our interaction with the senior officers. we do not have a formal mentoring world. in discussions with them, and you can get feedback on how we see their forces working, and then instituting policy down
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there chain of command, things like holding their personnel to a greater accountabilityxd, thee push for better accountability and not having the corruption they have today. i think that involvement, our company's involvement, has helped. >> what i am saying is this. >> what i'm wrestling with is this. you areç taking theçó place of government employees who might have the capability to have acce access. if you were in the government and you were charged with doing something you would say to your boss i can't get this job done because we can't retain the police because they don't get paid, their morale is down, they are not listening. and i'm wondering if inherently you would have are an easier time if you were part of government. and if you don't have the capability i'm wondering if there shouldn't be certain
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rights, opportunities or obligations that enable you to pass on information. i'm convinced if we could get rid of the corruption as related to police or army you would have more loyal police and army who were more willing to sign up. some police didn't know they had a pay raise. and yet they did. that is puzzling to me. let me ask you about the appeals process in general. forget this issue. in general, bus you have been on both sides. sometimes you appeal, sometimes after you contract and somebody appeals against you. do you believe we canç -- have you been in any instances where the process was speeded up by the government, they just moved forward and said we have to move forward with this contract? mr. ryder, have you had any cases like that? or mr. nicker sop where the
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process was speeded up where the issue was resolved sooner? >> no, sir. >> mr. roitz? >> my former role we were responsible for a large procurement for guards at our military bases. and we had multiple protests and we did multiple protest overrides. . retty high and level. a pretty high level. might it allows, and there are two protests. there are award and pre-award protests. post-award has limitations on performance. they can do it themselves and it
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allows them to either award the contract or to perform the service. >> can any of your answer this. i want to know how you think about this process? do you think the government needs the option? >> absolutely. >> yes. >> yes, sir. >> my questions are not company's pacific but i would also like to ask you to be certain questions about essentially the role of contractors operating in a wartime environment. first of all, i would like to extend my appreciation to all of you for the work that you do and recognize when we get into the field with robert bass's work in the theater and you meet contractor personnel doing the day-to-day work in support of our military and our security objectives, we get an education and learn about a lot of well
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motivated people during a tough job under difficult circumstances. that being said, there is also the business of accountability for government contractors operating in the war zone. this means having adequate oversight, contrasting representatives available to monitor your work, having a defense contract agency and the joint command and doing the things they need to do. but i would like no from each of you is that, in your judgment the amount of oversight required for contractors to perform in the field, do we have it about right? are there not enough personnel to interface with you and give you the guidance and support that you need? what are the issues is who the -- associated with the business of government oversight of your activities in theater? i will go down the line. >> we do and currently have --
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do not hold me to the numbers. i think there are four in iraq. right now, i think it is four or five boeing 27 or 8 in afghanistan. from myxd viewpoint, we have the oversight -- going to 7 or 8 in afghanistan. >> we have one in the country. i mean the interface with that individual. in the past six months, there was a system into place to observe and reportçó back to thr staff and captor evaluation of our performance. ñr-- to capture each evaluation. there is formal oversight that
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goes on consistently. >> thinking. >> i think there are two aspects of oversight, formal contract oversight, and i think in our case that putting -- they are putting more people in place. ñiçóthe more informal and less structuredñr is adequate. xd>> thank you. let me ask in terms of, and we have had some discussion about contractors having the rule to identify better practices and finding ways toñi streamline, improved, save costs, avoid duplication, etc. in your experiences, the you have examples where you have offered up and contributed new and better ways to do things to save money and improve operations?
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>> sir, i do not have that information with me to provide examples. as i mentioned earlier, we have the capability when it comes to the day-to-day training in how we do things and how we can do things better. we provide that information to the inl and end users. >> a position or function cut -- when a position becomes no longer needed, they can go back to a contract official in aberdeen and eliminate the position. if the decision is just listed as not being filled because there is a request for a new requirement at the same skill level, they can then reactivate that. >> if you fell one was not needed, you would indicate?
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>> we have had discussions on that. when they come to me with the requirement, we discuss what they're looking at. >> probably a good example is how we have dealt with some of the illiteracy programs as well as the linguistic barrier and that is to utilize video modular training. make sure it is available and functions as a tool for remedial training and training instructors. >> my next question has to do with skill and ability. -- scalability.
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there will be a corresponding increase for support for the new surge in troops. what are the issues and challenges building of a contractor workforce by some accounts could run anywhere from an additional 30,000 tooth 56,000. what should we be looking at in making sure our resources are used well? is it doable to build up 30,000? how you doing and what are the issues? >> i will address the police side of that. i am not sure i have the fidelity or the clarity with what they're going to do with training the afghan national police. as i see the buildup, as i mentioned earlier, i think the important pieces of being able to drive additional resources
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from the grass-roots level, we have the capability to be able to ramp up with the military as they choose to the portions of the force. i think it is doable over time. yes, sir. >> thank you. >> we are fighting on the ground right now. the forces in the theater make sure there are no redundancy with the field of forces. that is something we look at with the command. physicians can be moved or eliminated. -- positions can be moved. >> there are two arguments. there is getting the personnel into the theater as well as the staging and moving them to the various locations.
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i think there is a significant number of personnel available to do this based on the people we see that applied. the people that we seeçó that express interest in going. life-support downrange in the capacity to maintain the larger group because you have a short term requirement based on your objectives. >> thank you. >> mr. green. >> could you provide us a breakdown of what training is being provided in iraq that is not being provided in afghanistan for basic police training?
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>> i'm going to be wanting to ask questions about how you respond to contractors who are wounded and those who have been killed and what benefits they received from your companies. ñ+wyou have the floor. >> i want to pick up from the questions under the existing statutes. mr. roitz, you describe your significant experience in doing these things. i think what you were talking about and you were nodding yes to, and the competition in contracting act under the last 20 years, there's been a sufficiently high level officials say there are hurting and compelling reasons to
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override the state. the contrasting for process goes forward. is that thought -- is that what you thought you were being asked? >> i think the government needs the right to do a protest over rights to continue, especially in wartime, to meet the requirements of the mission. >> and you are talking about the existing statute that has been there for 25 years? >> i do not know how long it has been in place. >> 1984. >> you two were also nodding yes. >> this is above my responsibilities. i am not familiar with the act. >> do you believe the government should have the right to short
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circuit a system? ok. >> sir, i am also not familiar with the statute. i think the government in emergencies ought to have that capability. >> are you asking for change in the laws? >> no, i think they should have a right which was the question i was asked to override the capability. >> ok. we have had a lot bit of processes that have been kansas and about the quality and the need for the afghan and national police training program he had not simply to crank out people to keep the quality high even if
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there are pressures for a more rapid a process. let me ask you. i think your statement has a couple of statements. as far as barriers, we talked about literacy. you mentioned other things besides literacy. how would lowering the quality of the program leave them unable to deal with corruption, drug use, and the 26% saour attrition rate? >> my comment on the record about quality of is that right now the training we provide in the eight week training program xdis, in my view, basic training that we should not and cannot walk away from if we are going to lead the afghanis ñiwith a lw
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enforcement capability. we should not move away from that. that is, in my view, the minimal law-enforcement training that needs to be provided every single day. that is my point on quality. the issues we have with corruption and literacy, we have worked very hard. we have worked very hard to take a program of instruction and take it to a hands-on training where we are viewing the have received it, understanding it, and it is hands-on. the literacy peace is not going to go away. >> from the other side,ñi the afghan national police force of 160,000. >> that has not been agreed to.
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>> i stand corrected. wart >> the army. >> see the recommendation is a go. recommendation of the gold. region of the goal. i have no doubt that whatever contractor, whoever it is, will stay@@@@@ @ @ ga a a a a a a a >> i see you've stated as a lesson learned. simply increaseing the number of recruits and reducing the training cycle will not produce the capabilities to produce the what will happen if you simply increase the number of recruits to get to 160 thousand and reduce the training cycle, say from 8-6 weeks as we heard had been discussed.
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how would, what would be effected doing that? >> sir new jersey my opinion, the issue of quality and quantity is just coming to tuz points. "táo increase the quantity. you have to either increase your capacity. the regional training centers you can train at or you have to reduce the program of instructions you give to give to a number. those are the two variables you have to deal with. the program of instruction which gets to calling. the panel before me talked about not reducing the timeline that actually shrunk by making them work longer each day. i do not know the numbers being recommended. currently, the capacity that they had in the regional training centers training at full capacity for a full year
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using 50 weeks, i think you can only get 60,000 to pick 70,000. -- 60,000 to 70,000. if you shrink the course and you pull skills out, and you're going to end up with someone who is not trained well enough in law enforcement. if the strategy is because of the insurgency and needs something more like a our military, then so be it. as long as we understand that at the end of the day, whatever that is, you may not have a trained police force. you will have a paramilitary force. >> am i right that your understanding of what the afghan people want from your program is not merely paramilitary but those policing skills that you
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try to speak -- try to teach. >> i cannot speak for the afghan people. they can look at them and say these are people who are here to protect and serve. >> @ thank you for allowing me the time, mr. chairman. >> i thank you for your question. >> i really have one more question which is contract related. it also deals with your experience in theater. it has to do with a concept that is developing and in some places we may be competing with ourself. recording for afghan national police and the army has been a challenge. is part of that because the government is awarding contracts for logistics services,
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reconstruction services, and other activities in essence to create a competitive job market. we could potentially be paying more for afghans to be providers of the services they and to serve in the national police or army. from your experience, and you have any indication of that kind of phenomenon? -- do you have any indication? >> no, i do not. >> i do not have metrics. i do know there is a competition, especially if you have someone who goes to police training and is successful. there's the competition of other security companies, other opportunities that pay more than as a police officer. when you see the rate, i do not have part numbers for you, sir.
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>> thank you. >> gentleman, if you would be able to respond to the question of the dead and wounded. when we were writing the statement, our staff could not give us specific numbers of the numbers of contractors winded and killed in afghanistan and iraq. that is stunning. in many instances, they are former military personnel. somehow it does not seem as important, evidently. i would like you to speak about that. how can we get an accurate number? how can we make sure they are respected like anyone else who has lost their life serving their country? >> mr. chairman, that is not true for dyncorp. we have lost -- >> i think every contractor
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knows. the question is, are you aware of any place that this information is collected? >> i do not know. i can tell you that, as you have heard, we do take it very seriously. people are our most important asset. we do have a civilian employee assistance program that we have internally. >> that is the question i was leading to. >would you specifically, if one of your employees is wounded -- >> the military has a family assistance program. i mentioned -- we make injury visits. we explain the d.b.a. process.
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we sponsor memorials for these family members. we meet with them annually. they have an open dialogue with our assistance program office. they handle the challenges of death or severe injuries to help work their way through. we do not have all the answers, but we have a program that we now know what else has to assist. >> what happens if the injury is something they carry with them for the rest of their life? >> we work with that through the d.b.a. process and insurance is there. the assistance we give is to help them to understand because it is complicated and -- complicated. >> we have had a number of people we have had to medevac through germany.
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which is that through four -- is that true for all contractors? they go through germany? >> we -- there are a number of ways. depending on the severity of the injury is decided. >> is that your decision or someone else's? >> it is a medical decision. >> the final point is we have lost two individuals. it has been a dual action. >> we have a very similar program with the casualty assistance office. they make official notifications to the families in the event of
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death or injury. we have lost 35 people. we have a memorial garden with stones with names on them. that is part of the indoctrination process for the people who come to deploy to understand the significant sacrifices the others have made. >> let me talk about injury. you have employees that are american citizens, european, third-world, indigenous. do you keep track of all of them or just americans? >> i believe we keep track of what we consider ex-pats which are foreign nationals who from europe freed third country nationals, we really do not have interaction with the families.
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-- from europe. third country nationals, we do not have interaction. >> do you have something in your contract lines out how you treat the wounded? >> it is part of proposals because it is an important part of the contract. >> in terms of your seeking to recruit, i would think they would want to know what benefits and how the family is treated. i am assuming that is true. i found this panel very helpful and i appreciate the questions. i do not think we are doing enough asking all of you in a public forum when you were dealing with. i would like to see us do more of that. i am struck by the 12-8 we training's -- weekñi trainings
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that puts my antenna up. çóif we do not deal with reality and just deal with how we things want them to be, we will not succeed in the wrong -- in the long run. i wrestle with the fact that we want the military to be the ti [ but then we have contractors -- with the military to be a the tip of the spear. contractors cover up a flaw in our military or state where that should be done by the military or state but somehow it is not. we are not as aware of it. those are the kinds of things that the commission wrestles with, as well. i would invite any closing comments. >> to reemphasize the 8 versus 12, not to be a dead horse, but
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i think you hit on it. is there going to change at all to work in the war counter insurgency type instruction, it is even more important, i think, that we do not reduce the length of the training ifñi you wantçó to reduce capability. >> i agree. >> any comments? >> gentlemen, anything we did not ask that we should have? anything you would like to comment on? nld just like to think the commission. rigid thank the commission. >> sir, thank you for the opportunity. i would like to address the one thing i was not asked. i am not going to talk about a protest --
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>> you are making me nervous. >> we are, and all of the employees, as you have learned yourself are very dedicated. we will do nothing to impede the mission of the commander on the ground whether it is an ongoing protest or what ever is going on. we're dedicated. >> i believe that is true. i believe it is true for all fr
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>> coming up on "washington @ journal" we'll take your questions and comments. following that a 2010 census up rakeses and a briefing on the under counting of african-americans in the census. >> this morning a discussion on president barack obama plan toss send 30,000 troops to afghanistan. with ashraf haidari of the embassy of afghanistan. and a look at auto industry problems with justin hyde of the ellen degeneras. also a discussion on the human % rights agenda with michael er

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